Franklin Street Stories


Dianne: So, my name is Dianne Gooch Shaw, and I am a native Chapel Hillian. I had to be born in Durham because we didn't have a hospital here yet, but I've lived here most of my life. I have been away a few times, but I always come back because the population changes so you never feel like its always the same people.

[0:22] Franklin Street is a very fond part of my life. I don't go downtown as much anymore because, I think, I was talking with my sister and it's just not quite the same. It used to be that you would go to Franklin Street and you would be stopping every 10 feet because you'd see somebody that you knew.

[0:47] I remember when I was first dating my soon-to-be husband. He said, "Well, do we have to go downtown? It takes so long for you to walk down Franklin Street because you have to stop and talk with so many people!" That's just how it was.

[1:04] I was talking with my sister and my dad. My dad's grandfather had a restaurant called Gooch's Cafe. That was actually in the building where Julian's was. It was upstairs. He also had another little portion of that over on North Columbia. It was just a little stand. It wasn't a fancy restaurant.

[1:26] My grandfather had Gooch's Restaurant. That was on Franklin Street. The storage area for his restaurant was actually where the Rathskeller was. That was the storage for granddaddy's restaurant.

[1:40] We were thinking about smells and stores where you remember the smell. Rose's, with the popcorn - Rose's had this smell, as did Le Coq Shoe Store, as did the leather shop. Those were all places. You would walk into Le Coq's and yes, it smelled exactly like a shoe shop, as did the leather shop.

[2:03] There was Kemp's, of course. That was down towards where McAlister's is. That, of course, burned. But that's where you went to get your records. They had all kinds of records and posters. It was a very radical place because it was run by Kemp Nye. I remember when it burned, it was really, really sad.

[2:28] Also down that way was a place called Hector's. I forget what's there now. The sign said "Famous since 1969" or something like that. Of course, it was '69 so we were saying, "Well, this place isn't so famous." But it was great. They had wonderful hot dogs. That was the big thing you get at Hector's.

[2:51] Let's see, Harry's was another hot spot. That was a very Bohemian place, I guess you would say. But a lot of college students hung out there, and some high school students who were very daring. I was not so daring. I occasionally went in.

[3:07] Also down that way was a place called the Dairy Bar. That was next to Kemp's actually.

[3:14] Let's see, I've got my list here. Some of the clothing stores for women were a place called Town and Campus, the Fireside - those were both catering towards college girls. The Little Shop was sort of the high fashion shop. They always had really neat stuff in the window. It was sort of the high fashion.

[3:37] There was also a place called J.B. Robbins' House of Fashion. My sister and I really like it because it had a fountain inside, in the lobby area. We remember that because while we were shopping, Cindy and I were bored and we went wading in the fountain. Of course, my mother was mortified because her daughters were wading in the fountain at J.B. Robbins' House of Fashion.

[4:01] Now in that area there's a downstairs area and there's a Chinese Restaurant and stuff there. Up at the top is a T-shirt shop, Johnny T-Shirts, that's sort of in that area.

[4:16] But before Johnny T-shirt's and all that, it was a place called Town Hall. It was a music place. They had great concerts there. You didn't ever really want to wear really good shoes because the floors were just sticky with all kinds of stuff. You really didn't know what it was, but people could bring their dogs in. They had really great shows there.

[4:36] Danziger's was another spot from my childhood. They had a little cafe in there where you could sit and have coffee and pastries. They also had a wonderful candy counter. That was what I remembered when I was younger was, "Oh, I'm going to Danziger's to see all the wonderful candy!"

[4:54] Then in the back, they had China and stoneware and what not. I know, because when I got married that was where I had my stoneware registered. So, it was very eclectic, but it was a very nice shop.

[5:11] The Dandelion was a shop that was upstairs. You had to go up some metal steps. And, it had sort of, I guess, hippie stuff more than anything. I remember that shop.

[5:24] The Carolina Theater, which was there until fairly recently, that's where they had the world premier for the Betty Smith novel "Joy in the Morning". Everybody was really excited because we thought that Yvette Mimieux and Richard Chamberlain were going to come to Chapel Hill. They didn't, but it was exciting anyway.

[5:48] The thing that I remember about the Carolina Theater was that the man that built the theater, I think, was very large. So down at the front, he had a double wide seat. And of course, my best friend from childhood and I, when we went to the Carolina Theater, that was where we had to sit was in the double seat because it was just so unusual, that double seat.

[6:11] Jeff's was next to the Varsity Theater. That closed pretty recently, and that's where they had all the naughty magazines. I very seldom, if ever, went. I can count on the fingers of one hand how often I went into Jeff's.

[6:26] It was just kind of not my place. [laughs] They had naughty magazines and men were in there and they were smoking. I just never felt real comfortable in there, although a lot of people went in there all the time. It was just me.

[6:43] Huggins Hardware was on Franklin Street. You could pretty much get anything you needed there. It was small. It had the same kind of flooring that Rose's did, the sort of dark, very narrow paneling. And it would creak a lot.

[6:55] Of course, when you're thinking about creaking floors then you think of the Intimate Book Shop. Because when they rebuilt it after the fire, they had to put those creaks back into the floor so that people would feel at home there.

[7:09] Of course, the thing about Intimate Book Shop was that we just called it "The Intimate". I remember we had some colleagues come to Chapel Hill for a meeting. I said, "Let's go to the Intimate Book Shop." They said, "Diane, we didn't know you were that type of person."

[7:27] I said, "What do you mean? Oh! Intimate Book Shop! No, no, it's not like that at all! The Intimate Book Shop, that's just what it's called." But I never thought of it in that other context.

[7:40] There were two main drug stores - Sutton's, of course, which is still there, and up on the corner was Sloan's. And Sloan's, because it was closer to the old Chapel Hill High that was on Franklin Street and Chapel Hill Junior High, that's where all the high school kids went and hung out after school at the soda fountain and what not.

[8:00] While they still had the high school still there, Hardee's came to town. Oh, for kids, this was fabulous. After school while you were waiting for your bus you could run down and get a milkshake or a Coke or something. It was just, "Ooh, Hardee's had come to town!" That was very special.

Interviewer: [8:20] Where was it located?

Dianne: [8:20] It's where Panera Bread is now.

[8:26] Also down that way was Belk's Department Store. That was sort of the big department store downtown. That's where the Aveda Instititue is, that area. The thing I remember about Belk's was that was where you went and got your school clothes.

[8:46] They also had the Hot Diggity Day. They had the one television for five dollars. My sister and I used to get pretty good at it. On Hot Diggity Day, you had to go and stand in a huge crowd. Because we were very small, we would crawl on our hands and knees through the crowd. People would say, "Oh! What's that? Oh, a little girl, " and they would let us through. Of course we never got the TV but we certainly did try.

Interviewer: [9:09] Could you tell me a little bit about what Hot Diggity Day was and how it worked?

Dianne: [9:17] They still have it in the summer. I guess it's like the end of inventory or something. Everything was on sale. Every store on Franklin Street had a sale. CHL would come down on Franklin Street and broadcast from there. They had nickel hot dogs. It was just a big deal. It was in the middle of summer.

[9:39] When I was growing up in Chapel Hill in the summers, it was not so crowded because you just had summer school and it was a very small student population. So the stores closed at noon on Wednesday and you just didn't go downtown. That was when the stores closed. Everybody knew that on Wednesday afternoon, no shopping because everything was closed.

[10:06] The Carolina Coffee Shop has been there for a long time. It's still there. It has gotten more of a sports bar overlay but it was the place to go for Sunday breakfast because they had classical music and wonderful food. It was just a really neat place.

[10:23] Foister's Camera Shop used to be on Franklin Street. That was there for a really long time. If you look at some of the historical photos of Franklin Street, you will see that there was a Foister's Camera Shop there. Then I guess because of the advent of all the Best Buys and other places where you can buy cameras for less, they finally closed. They had fabulous people there who knew everything about photography. It was just a really great place to go to get help, get cameras, and get your film developed and everything.

[10:56] I've told you a little bit about Gooch's Cafe. Gooch's was more of a restaurant. You could order off a menu. He also had a club out from town that also got set up in Virginia Beach. A lot of students worked at Gooch's restaurant and it was there for a while. Sometimes when I tell people my name, "Oh was that?" Yes it was.

Interviewer: [11:21] Was it still there when you left?

Dianne: [11:25] No, it was gone. Ledbetter Pickard's was where you went to get your stationery, office supplies. If you were going down to Amber Alley, it's on the left. It's like up from Sutton's. And, of course down in Amber Alley, you have the Ratskeller. Everybody remembers the Ratskeller from growing up. That was our idea of a big Saturday.

[11:47] All of my girlfriends and I would go to the "Rat". We would order the sparkling cider and pizza or the rare roast beef sandwich. That was always our favorite. Charles Hopkins jewelry store was down Amber Alley. He had beautiful things there. That has gone now as well.

[12:06] Cheryl Lynn's was another women's clothing shop. Milton's of course was. I don't know what is in Milton's now. But that was across the street from Julian's. Milton and Julian were brothers. They had this wonderful air. Missy could tell you about this. You go into their store; you know you're in their store because of the way the air smelled. They had some very special process or thing or something. You'll have to ask Missy.

[12:39] It smelled very different in there. Julian's didn't carry women's clothes; Milton's did. So I could tell you more about Milton's than Julian's although my husband has shopped at Julian's. They were both really, really nice shops. Hate to see them both gone.

There was also Varley's Menswear. That was about two doors down from Julian's. It was sort of a college male clothing shop. Very nice. Lots of business there. There were two jewelry stores. One is still there: [13:00] Wentworth & Sloan. Kent's Jewelry. I was trying to remember where it was on Franklin Street because it had moved to University Square so we had two main jewelry stores downtown.

[13:31] I think that's it.

Interviewer: [13:32] Did you go to Chapel Hill High School while it was on Franklin Street?

Dianne: [13:35] I did. Let's see. I went to Chapel Hill Junior High on Franklin Street, my seventh and eighth grades. They then opened—I can't remember the name of my junior high! Oh, this is terrible. I'll have to think of it.

[14:02] So they combined junior highs there and then I went back to Franklin Street to Chapel Hill High, sophomore and junior year. Then they moved out to the new Chapel Hill High School and it was way out from town. It combined Chapel Hill High and Lincoln High. So we were the first graduating racially mixed class out of that new Chapel Hill High. So yes, I went to the high school on Franklin Street.

Interviewer: [14:33] Do you remember much about segregation? Were there were any stories that kind of came up out of that process?

Dianne: [14:41] I remember that all along when I was in grade school and junior high in Chapel Hill, there were always Black students in my classes but I guess these were kids who had chosen to come to these other schools. When we went to Chapel Hill High everybody's senior year—it was tricky because the White high school was the more dominant one.

[15:12] When it came to like senior superlatives, the White kids got most of the stuff. It was tricky mixing two senior classes coming with expectations of being seniors. You're the oldest folks, and everything should come to you because you're seniors; it was hard. It was hard.

[15:38] I think people worked it out and I think that the kids who had been with us all along, they were still there. It was the coming together of those two schools. It was hard I think in some ways. But people tried really hard to make it not as hard but I think just intrinsically it was going to be difficult.

Interviewer: [16:03] There was a character that would kind of run out onto the field before the crowds. I don't know if this was the same time period or not. I'm trying to remember his name.

Dianne: [16:18] I'm trying to remember his name too. Yes. I can see him. Yes he was still around and he came to the games. Someone you need to talk with is, Robert Humphreys.

Interviewer: [16:49] Do you have any special memories of going to the Hardee's or going to Sloan's? Anything that happened tied to Franklin Street while you were in high school?

Dianne: [17:02] Well I remember that if you had time you would go to Sloan's. That's where all the kids were. You had to get there early to get a stool or a booth because it was always full. You could go in there and there was everybody. They were at Sloan's more so than at Sutton's simply because of the proximity to the high school.

[17:23] Literally, people started going to Hardee's, not after school, but during school. I never did that but some people did because it was just right down the hill from the high school and from the junior high.

Interviewer: [17:39] Did it look like Hardee's as we see them today?

Dianne: [17:42] Oh no. It was one of those things that looked like a space ship. It had the high front and a lot of orange, I remember. And then of course we had Burger Chef or something over on Rosemary Street.

Interviewer: [18:02] So plenty of places to go and get a bite before or during school?

Dianne: [18:06] Oh yeah. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Interviewer: [18:12] The sock hops, were they still happening?

Dianne: [18:15] In the gym, at the high school. Yep, absolutely.

Interviewer: [18:18] Do you have any memories from those?

Dianne: [18:21] No, it's just that, you know, that's where we had the junior-senior prom as well. You were on the decorating committee and had to get the gym all fixed up. It took days and hours. Then, of course, you had to run home immediately, take off your sweaty clothes from doing all the decorations. Then put on your prom dress, just a few hours later. "Oh, it looks so pretty," like I've never seen this before.

[18:46] I could tell you about each individual rose that's stuffed in there. I don't remember the themes of the junior-senior proms, but ... All these little crepe paper roses and stuff.

Interviewer: [19:01] Now, did you also do your undergrad here?

Dianne: [19:03] I'm afraid I did.

Interviewer: [19:07] When I talked with Dr. Allred, he was talking a lot about kind of music festivals and things like that.

Dianne: [19:12] [laughs] Oh, yes.

Interviewer: [19:12] I think that was under the context when your name came up.

Dianne: [19:16] Yes, that would be correct. Actually, Steve and my husband and I were a trio and we performed at Apple Chill and at clubs around town. Steve was our bass player, and he sang. John, my husband, just played, he did not sing. And I sang and played. So yeah. It's always been a very active music scene.

[19:44] On North Columbia Street, just off of Franklin there was a place called the Rookery. Where David Olby used to play all the time. He's now in Nashville. Mark Cross used to play there. Mike is my brother in law. So there were a lot of people playing around town. It was a very, very active music town. I was...

[20:15] Kate Taylor is my age. James was a year older. Alex was two years older. But there weren't a whole lot of people who played folk guitar when I was in junior high and high school. James did, Geoffrey Coe did. Livy Taylor did, Kate did. So there was a group of us and we played at hootenannies and for church groups and whatnot. So James, of course, went on to do great things. Huge musically, but.

[20:51] He actually came to do a concert here, and so he agreed to do a benefit for the cancer center. I had contacted him and said, remember? He said yeah, and so he came and did the concert. We had tickets, I had a block of tickets. And we had a reception before and then after and he came to the reception afterwards. That's where I was presenting him a t-shirt.

Interviewer: [21:26] One of the things that's come up a lot in these conversations that I've had with people, is about how the feel of Franklin Street's changed. Sort of how it was a little bit more like a village before.

Dianne: [21:49] It was. It was. It was much more of a village. As I said, you would walk downtown and you would see everybody. But now, with malls and everybody scattered, it's just not the same feeling. It's more... It's just not as much of the center of town as it used to be.

[22:13] With this awful murder last week with Eve Carson, I was reminded of the murder in the arboretum. This was back in 1965, and this young woman was killed in broad daylight in the arboretum. I don't think they ever found who did it.

[22:31] But for weeks after that, I remember when I would be downtown, every woman - older woman especially - that you saw had a man with her. And she usually had a big umbrella and it wasn't raining. It put everybody on guard and I just remember being just, "Wow." Because that just really was very scary. That had never really happened here before.

Interviewer: [23:03] How old were you at the time?

Dianne: [23:04] I was 14 and that was scary.

Interviewer: [23:10] Was it a student?

Dianne: [23:11] Yes. Who got killed, yes. And of course, all of us ran around campus. We ran around the arboretum, the main campus. That was our other playground, was the campus. So that just really was very, very shocking to everybody.

Interviewer: [23:27] Now can you remember any memorable events that you took part in on Franklin Street? Or things that you witnessed, anything that stuck out?

Dianne: [23:48] There was some type of demonstration at the wall between Franklin Street and the campus.

Interviewer: [23:57] The speaker ban?

Dianne: [23:58] Yes, yes. And somehow we got to go to that. I don't remember how, but we did. I remember some of the earlier Apple Chill festivals. Those were fun. Those were the ones that Steven and John and I were performing during, and that was fun. Again, it was mostly on E. Franklin and it started getting really crowded. I think the year that we played, we were on the lawn of the Methodist church.

[24:33] I remember really not having to put my feet down, or feeling that I didn't, walking down Franklin Street to go back to our car after playing. Because there were just so many people. And of course, Franklin Street, I didn't ever do this growing up with all the stuff after basketball games, I never did that. But you always know it's there.

Interviewer: [25:17] Going back to this incident with you and your sister in the fountain. Could you set it up a little bit like a story and sort of describe kind of how that moment happened?

Dianne: [25:30] Well, OK. JP Robbins House of Fashion was a very nice womens clothing store. You went in the front door, they had all these big display windows and you went through this corridor, then you went into the store. You could go downstairs, you could go upstairs, or you could stay on the main floor. At the bottom of the steps was a fountain and it had flowers around it or plants or something.

[26:02] So my mom was doing some shopping, so Cindy and I were sort of left to our own devices. We just got tired and that fountain just looked so interesting. We were very good girls. We just never did stuff like that, but we just were tired and it looked like so much fun, so we took off our shoes and socks and started wading in the fountain.

[26:28] Someone saw us, and I guess looked around for a loose mother and there was our mom. Mom just about killed us. I mean, she was mortified. Cindy and I just never had so much fun, because this was great. It's woohoo, wading in the fountain at JP Robbins House of Fashion. But we did.

Interviewer: [26:49] How old were you?

Dianne: [26:49] How old was I? I don't know. Maybe eight, nine. Because Cindy was really little. She was following my lead. She was not doing this on her own. I was the ringleader. I was the bad girl.

Interviewer: [27:08] Did anything happen to you afterwards?

Dianne: [27:09] No. Mom apologized profusely. We apologized profusely.

[laughs] But, I don't think we ever went back in there. I just said, "Yep, not doing that."

Interviewer: [27:22] And then you also mentioned The Intimate, which was another place I was trying to gather stories about. Did you go to any readings there? Was there anything that stuck out?

Dianne: [27:34] I just remember that that's where I found so many important books growing up, and that I always could go there and find whatever it was I was looking for. You could read some of the books. I remember, you would go up and down the aisles and there would be people just sitting on the floor reading the books.

[28:00] I remember that the floors creaked a lot, and that there was an upstairs and a downstairs. There were just always a lot of really good books. Lots of people went there. This was before Barnes and Noble and all of the big box stores.

Interviewer: [28:46] If it was a date night or anything like that, where would you go on Franklin Street?

Dianne: [28:53] Oh, well if it were a date night, you'd go to the movies probably, or a concert in Town Hall, or the Rookery. Gosh, where would we go to dinner? Well, by the time I grew up I didn't go to the Rat much anymore. That was more when I was at college and growing up.

[29:16] That's a very good question. I'm just trying to think what was there then. The Zoom Zoom Room? Yes, we went there. It was kind of like the Rat, but it was a little more than the Rat. And it was dark. I remember it was dark and you had candles at the table. I can't remember even where that was.

[29:46] We always went to the Carolina Coffee Shop for breakfast on Sunday. That was something we did for a long time. Because I didn't cook.

[laughs] That was a good place to go.

Interviewer: [30:00] Now, I know that it's changed over the years, but was there any period that you remember more fondly than others?

Dianne: [30:12] Well, I think when I was born, the first place I lived was in the Village Apartments which was on the other side of the Presbyterian Church. Now they're fancy apartments, but they were not fancy when I was there. So, my parents were on Franklin Street all the time.

[30:33] Oh, Fowler's. That was on West Franklin Street. Fowler's was the gourmet food store. It's also where all the college kids got their kegs. But, if you needed something fancy, it was at Fowler's. They had great produce. My grandfather was a butcher there. It was sort of the fancy grocery store in town.

[31:02] They had a cooler in the back where they kept the beer. When we first moved back to Chapel Hill we didn't have air conditioning, because we had lived in the mountains and it was a small house and it didn't come with air conditioning. We would go to the cooler in Fowler's. We would just need to make some important decisions about beer so that we could hang out in the cooler and finally get cooled off.

[31:27] Fowler's used to deliver your groceries to your home if you wanted them too. It was the fancy place in town to go grocery shopping.

Interviewer: [31:38] What did it look like?

Dianne: [31:44] It had a large meat area in the back. It had produce down the side. In the back, originally it was where you checked out, and then that became where they had all the wine. And they had a lot of wine at Fowler's. They had a really great wine selection.

[32:06] I'm just kind of going through the story mentally. I can't give you an estimate of how big it was. I'm trying to think of Whole Foods or Weaver Street. It was probably about the size of Whole Foods, I would say. It had, I think, white columns out in front. You could check out in the back, they had cashiers back there.

[32:42] It just wasn't like A&P or Winn-Dixie or anything.

Interviewer: [32:46] Was it there the whole time you were growing up, or was it something you remember opening?

Dianne: [32:51] I think it was there pretty much the whole time I was there. There was a Colonial Grocery Store way down at the end of West Franklin there on the left. We went there, but we also went to Fowler's.

Interviewer: [33:08] And, you talked about Danzinger's, the candy store. I was hoping you could describe that for me.

Dianne: [33:14] Well, you'd go into Danzinger's and the first thing you'd see to the right would the candy counter. For me, the two big things were the red string licorice and their white chocolate. Now, I'm a chocoholic and I now I know that white chocolate isn't even really chocolate. But for me, I loved that white chocolate.

[33:31] So, I would save up my allowance. The thing would be to go into Danziger's. Is it going to be the red shoe string licorice or the white chocolate this week?

[33:41] Then, sort of towards the back and to the left you had the little round cafe tables. They had coffee and pastries. I wasn't doing that at that point in my life. I just went to the candy counter at the front.

[33:55] Then later, I don't know if it was there all along or if I just started noticing it as I was growing up, but they had an area at the back. I'm not sure if they had China, but they had really nice stoneware and kitchen stuff. That's where I got my stoneware when I got married. I registered at Danzinger's. We actually still have that stoneware 35 years later.

Interviewer: [34:25] what was the environment and atmosphere? What did it sound like in there?

Dianne: [34:30] It was very quiet, because they didn't have a large dining area. It wasn't like a restaurant kind of thing, it was for pastries and coffee. But it was very refined. You could hear people talking, but it wasn't like walking into a full-scale restaurant. It was just a really nice place. They had European foods, cookies and stuff in there.

Interviewer: [34:59] I've talked about the street vendors in early 70's and the flower lady controversy.

Dianne: [35:05] Oh, huh. Yeah, we taught the son of one of the flower ladies. Pratt, her name was Lily Pratt. And she's been there forever. Her son, Ben, is just a love. He is married, I think he has a child. He's got a graduate degree. I taught him and my husband taught him. We were both teachers at the high school for a time and we both had Ben.

[36:06] I just remember those days. You would go there in the summer. This was before. North Carolina National Bank, now Bank of America, was there. I can tell you this. There was a big hoopla when that bank was built because it was going to be a tall building. And "We'll never have a tall building on Franklin Street, you just had not". So this was a big deal! Some people stopped banking there because they were so upset that they were putting in that tall building because that's where the flower ladies were.

[36:48] It just didn't feel like Chapel Hill. It just didn't feel right on Franklin Street. It was too tall; too modern; too 'bricky' and it just wasn't how Franklin Street was. And the flower ladies were always a part of Franklin Street. They were always there and it was great to support people who lived here and were making their living here. It just made it real special.

Interviewer: [37:19] I know that the flower ladies were moved off the street sometime during late 70.

Dianne: [37:25] Yeah. Yeah, something like that. And then they went into the hallway there. And that was good for them. I mean it got them out of the weather and stuff. But people just had real issues about that. And I remember when Kemp's burned. Oh, that was awful!

Interviewer: [37:47] Were you here when it burned?

Dianne: [37:49] I wasn't there on Franklin Street when it burned but yeah, I heard about it and it just, "Oh my God, Kemp's is on fire, it's burning!" because there it was aisles and aisles of records that you couldn't find other places and posters and it just was a real gathering place for students and for kids. And Kemp Nye was just a character. His son you might try to look up. Everybody went to Kemp's. It was sort of the hippie, beatnik place. I don't remember the cause of that fire. But I just remember being really sad that it had burned down.

Interviewer: [38:36] Do you remember seeing it after it was on fire?

Dianne: [38:39] Yeah. It was bad. There was nothing left because there was so much paper and stuff in there it really lit up. It was like a hole, it was like a hole, a big hole with all these cinders. It was really sad. It was just really sad.

Interviewer: [38:58] What was there afterwards?

Dianne: [39:01] There was something there afterwards and I don't remember what it was. And then the Callisters is the most recent thing that I can think of. There was a barbershop down there on the corner of that street where the dairy bar was, Henderson Street. Of course, it was a barbershop so I wasn't going to that.

[39:25] And there also was a real post office, I mean it was a functioning post office. You would go there, and again, it was marble and wood. It just felt very substantial going in there. It was cool in the summer because of all the marble and that's when you saw everybody as well, was at the post office.

Interviewer: [39:48] This is where the courthouse is now? I mean the post office-courthouse?

Dianne: [39:54] Uh-huh, yeah. It's a functioning post office. That's where you got your mail. And that's where you went and bought your stamps because there wasn't the one out on Estes Drive. That was it. That was the post office. And that's where you saw a lot of people too just going in and out of the post office.

Interviewer: [40:12] Do you remember any of the civil rights demonstrations or anything like that?

Dianne: [40:17] I remember marches, but I wasn't in any of them. But I remember them. I heard about some, like the wop pile. I never saw those. There was one out also from town at Watt's Grille that wasn't very nice. People were lined in the lobby of that restaurant and someone working at the restaurant came over and pulled down her panties and urinated on them.

[41:02] Yeah. [Shudders] Bad. Very bad.

Interviewer: Will you explain what self-limiting hours were?

Dianne: [41:07] OK. Self-limiting hours, you could sign yourself out. You could stay out after midnight. This was new. You didn't get to do this. It started my sophomore year. I was in coll. dorm one. So you'd stay out after midnight. Before you were in by midnight or you were in big trouble. Kitty Carmichael would come get you! [laughs]

[41:33] So after that, then there's no place to go because everything closed. But Roy Roger's Rescue-aka Roy Bs was open. You could barely get in there late at night because that was the only game in town. Otherwise you could go to the Tobble House I think but that was it for Chapel Hill. It was Roy B's and...

Interviewer: [41:58] So no other bars were open then or?

Dianne: [42:00] I don't think so. I think everything pretty much closed. There weren't that many bars. I take it back. Maybe there were, I didn't go to them. I was a pretty innocent person. I would play in some of them like I played in the bar and what not. But yeah, that as I recall was the only place we could get something to eat after midnight so a lot of people went there. This was a huge deal to get self-limiting hours. They had boys in your room and [whispers] it's a big deal. Imagine that! [laughing]

Dianne: [42:44] Well, it was the late 60s and women were saying "Hey, how come all these guys get to do whatever they want as undergraduates and why do we have to have these hours where we have to be in? It's just not fair".

[43:01] So then they worked out the self-limiting hours. You could sign out, be out, come back in at thus and so time and then now of course it is what it is. When I was a senior here I was one of the organizers for orientation. That was the year that they were having co-ed dorm in Morrison. And we had parents calling that were terrified or horrified that their daughters was going to be in a co-ed dorm, And we explained, "See the locks between the floors? It's going to be OK!" and what not. But it was interesting.

Interviewer: [43:40] And so they served roast beef, and anything else?

Dianne: [43:43] It was like roast beef sandwiches here and burgers. You know, sandwich type stuff but not beer or anything, you get milkshake or coffee or whatever. Yeah, but that was the game in town. Roy B's.

Interviewer: [43:57] What did it look like?

Dianne: [43:59] Again, a lot of orange. You went in and they had a counter and then they had a lot of booths. And the booths were up closer to Franklin Street. The counter was towards the back. And people were just crowded in those booths and there was always a line because that's where you went to eat after midnight.

Interviewer: And Kitty Carmichael was?

Dianne: [44:20] She was the Dean of Women Students.

[jokingly] You just didn't want just didn't want to be God. That was not going to be a good thing for you!

Interviewer: [44:36] So did people try and sneak by and things, I mean who tracked where people were at midnight?

Dianne: [44:42] You had to...I'm trying to remember this exactly now. You had to sign yourself out and you had to come to the guards at the door and I think you got a key or somehow...gosh, what was it? How did you get yourself back in? I just remember guards being at the door to let you in late at night if you came in after midnight. It's very different now.

[45:14] Well, you know they're not guards. Police type people. Security people. Whatever. But it was hard before because if you were trying to say goodnight there he was, watching there at the dorm doors, made it a little tough.